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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 28 post(s) |
Dominique Vasilkovsky
BFG Tech
149
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Posted - 2015.01.26 11:06:08 -
[1] - Quote
About time and I hope they wipe the learning implants at the same time, they are as good for the game as the old learning skills were... I can't wait to use pirate implants again but without the SP/h penalty.
Just give us a flat 2700SP/h going in to a pool like Dust where we then just can dish out the SP to skills whenever we fancy.
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
BFG Tech
151
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Posted - 2015.01.26 14:52:38 -
[2] - Quote
Incestuous Criticism wrote:You know what boo hoo. I maybe older than you, I have been in the work force longer and get paid more, but you know what thats not right. Therefore employers should change the conditions so that when you start you should immediately catchup to me.
Are you serious of course when you start a game years after everyone else you are going to be behind the eight ball.
Do they need to change the game so that you can be the same within a year or so as to someone that has played for many years.
And guess what, there are plenty of older players that still get killed and podded by a noob.
After nearly 9 years and 190m+ SP I still say go for it, the attributes, learning skills and learning implants were a bad idea from day one.
Even if new players were given 50m SP I wouldn't be worried, it is the experience and reputation that counts in EVE.
Dominique Vasilkovsky EVEboard
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
BFG Tech
151
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Posted - 2015.01.26 15:39:15 -
[3] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Olive branch time:
We remove implants, we remove remaps. BUT, we don't get compensated for the loss of training speed through increased base attribs. So they stay 19-20 attrib points.
That way everyone has the same learning speed and all is fine.
At 1800SP/h the skill training will be reduced a good 33% so it will be worse for the low SP characters as it will take even longer for them to catch up.
Dominique Vasilkovsky EVEboard
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
BFG Tech
151
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Posted - 2015.01.26 15:44:25 -
[4] - Quote
Chaotix Morwen wrote:Why is everybody obsessed with removing choices from this game? Learning implants have always given people the choice of risk vs reward, you people are essentially asking for the reward without the risk.
I'll bet you loved the choice given back when we had learning skills to train as well.
It isn't about risk, it is about a stupid mechanic that shouldn't have been added to start with. I would happily replace my +5s with highgrade pirate implants if it wasn't for the SP/h penalty currently imposed.
Dominique Vasilkovsky EVEboard
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
BFG Tech
151
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Posted - 2015.01.26 17:16:18 -
[5] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:I thought this thread was about not giving older, more wealthy players, and advantage so I'm sure everyone will agree to a no remaps, no implants solution, regardless of the base attribs as it creates equality? What's wrong with the base 19-20 attribs?
What I can do after 9 years with an average of 2447SP/h will take a new starter a good 12+ years to do due to a lower speed cap (1800SP/h).
If the cap is set to 2700SP/h for everyone that same new starter would be at my current level after only 8 years.
Dominique Vasilkovsky EVEboard
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
BFG Tech
151
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Posted - 2015.01.26 19:53:04 -
[6] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:I thought this thread was about not giving older, more wealthy players, and advantage so I'm sure everyone will agree to a no remaps, no implants solution, regardless of the base attribs as it creates equality? What's wrong with the base 19-20 attribs? What I can do after 9 years with an average of 2447SP/h will take a new starter a good 12+ years to do due to a lower speed cap (1800SP/h). If the cap is set to 2700SP/h for everyone that same new starter would be at my current level after only 8 years. No, your logic is flawed. I thought this was about evening the playing field, removing implants and remaps? Regardless of what everyone's SP/h will be set to, newbies will never catch up to older players so given that it really doesn't matter what the sp/h is. Or... could it be... just perhaps... that this isn't at all about equality, but about how you and everyone else want 2700SP/h without any of the downsides? That this whole "nonono, it's better for the game and the newbies, THINK OF THE NEWBIES!" is just a lie? SAY IT AINT SO!
No it isn't, what I'm saying is that it would be stupid to have new players train slower than we did. Even if you give new players 5000SP/h I still will run out of trainable skills before they catch up. They will never catch up to the people starting a decade earlier. However that isn't a good reason to make them suffer two decades for the same progress though.
Dominique Vasilkovsky EVEboard
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
BFG Tech
152
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Posted - 2015.01.27 09:49:42 -
[7] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Zappity wrote:The problem with learning implants is that they don't contribute to in game activities. Having them active means you are less likely to be doing something else which other people can interact with. So when I'm in my +5 learning I'm not in my snakes, or industry, or whatever else.
Encouraging people into learning clones rather than 'interacting' clones is bad game design. Thats not the implants that entirely down to you.
True but why promote a feature that makes people chose inactivity for a large percentage of the playerbase? If the option for attribute implants didn't exist people wouldn't get themselfs locked in "in the wrong clone" in the first place.
Dominique Vasilkovsky EVEboard
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
BFG Tech
152
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Posted - 2015.01.27 09:57:31 -
[8] - Quote
Chaotix Morwen wrote:Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:Chaotix Morwen wrote:Why is everybody obsessed with removing choices from this game? Learning implants have always given people the choice of risk vs reward, you people are essentially asking for the reward without the risk. I'll bet you loved the choice given back when we had learning skills to train as well. It isn't about risk, it is about a stupid mechanic that shouldn't have been added to start with. I would happily replace my +5s with highgrade pirate implants if it wasn't for the SP/h penalty currently imposed. The learning skills werent a choice, there wasnt the pick between SP, ship efficency or cost, it was just spend time for bonuses. With implants you can have learning implants, pirate implants or nothing at all, 3 choices which you can intermix as you wish. With choice comes risk. Just because you struggle with choices doesnt mean its a stupid mechanic. Are you seriously saying you wont use pirate implants for the sake of 1.5 sp/m? Does that meager little sp gain mean so much as to gimp your ships?
It's the same argument, you didn't have to do the learning skills, sure would be silly long term if you didn't get them trained but no one forced you. Same with the attribute implants. Not to mention the attribute implants were added to make up for the bad learning skill mechanic in the first place.
Up until recently high grade implants were +3 not +4. That 3SP/m would total to 11m SP for the 7 years I have had +5's plugged in.
Dominique Vasilkovsky EVEboard
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
BFG Tech
152
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Posted - 2015.01.27 10:01:17 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:people accept risk in this pvp centric MMO where consequences can be harsh? I'm not on the team that brought this question up with the CSM, but I do have a question for you. If your practice, normally, is to spend, say, 50 million ISK for a pod full of implants today, why would that not be your practice tomorrow, if learning implants were to be removed? Wouldn't you just spend your money on hardwirings instead, and maybe get an even larger edge in combat? Or, is your concern that learning implants would be viewed by the average player as inherently more valuable than non-learning-implants, so their willingness to spend on their pod decreases? I ask because it's not evident to me that making skill training speed independent of implants will somehow reduce the overall average value of a pod, or the average risk that a player is willing to take on its contents.
Currently I have 530M worth of attribute implants and 600M worth of hardwires, with no attributes tied to the implants I would have 2-4b worth of pirate implants plugged in instead.
Dominique Vasilkovsky EVEboard
Once known as:
Mashie Saldana sold - Anastasia Rigel sold - Monica Foulkes sold
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
BFG Tech
152
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Posted - 2015.01.27 10:50:18 -
[10] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:Currently I have 530M worth of attribute implants and 600M worth of hardwires, with no attributes tied to the implants I would have 2-4b worth of pirate implants plugged in instead. And it would give you a hilarious advantage over younger players who can't spend that money on them. So removing implants isn't helping newbies at all, now is it. Oops?
I never talked about helping newbies, I was just shooting down your stupid idea where you suggest it should take them 15 years to catch up to where we are after 10 years.
Dominique Vasilkovsky EVEboard
Once known as:
Mashie Saldana sold - Anastasia Rigel sold - Monica Foulkes sold
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
BFG Tech
152
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Posted - 2015.01.27 11:01:58 -
[11] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:Currently I have 530M worth of attribute implants and 600M worth of hardwires, with no attributes tied to the implants I would have 2-4b worth of pirate implants plugged in instead. And it would give you a hilarious advantage over younger players who can't spend that money on them. So removing implants isn't helping newbies at all, now is it. Oops? I never talked about helping newbies, I was just shooting down your stupid idea where you suggest it should take them 15 years to catch up to where we are after 10 years. But they can't catch up SP wise (not that this matters), not in the current situation nor in the suggested one. All it'll do is allow you to not "have to" choose learning implants and instead use lol implants which will give you a massive benefit DURING their progress. In short; drop the pretence that you're doing this "for the good of newbies, so they can advance faster". You just want to soothe your OCD to a point where you will allow yourself to drop learning implants in favour of combat ones, because it would give you more advantages.
I'm just saying they should progress at the same pace we have done up until now, not slower (which your 1800SP/h suggest).
Dominique Vasilkovsky EVEboard
Once known as:
Mashie Saldana sold - Anastasia Rigel sold - Monica Foulkes sold
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
BFG Tech
152
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Posted - 2015.01.27 11:04:27 -
[12] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:Currently I have 530M worth of attribute implants and 600M worth of hardwires, with no attributes tied to the implants I would have 2-4b worth of pirate implants plugged in instead. And it would give you a hilarious advantage over younger players who can't spend that money on them. So removing implants isn't helping newbies at all, now is it. Oops? I never talked about helping newbies, I was just shooting down your stupid idea where you suggest it should take them 15 years to catch up to where we are after 10 years. Thats a myth anyway.
My average SP/h since birth is 2440, Gregor Parud suggested all SP accumilation should be locked at 1800. How are people going to reach the same number of SP in the same timeframe that way?
Dominique Vasilkovsky EVEboard
Once known as:
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
BFG Tech
153
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Posted - 2015.01.27 13:37:52 -
[13] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:How typical am I? I will admit I don't know, but I would bet anything I'm a lot more closer to the norm than Mrs "wore +5s since day one and never trained a skill off-remap".
Ok just to prove I didn't do min/maxing from day one:
Quote:
This char was designed to have as even stats as possible so the attributes with advanced learning level 4 and +5 implants is as follow:
Charisma 24
Intelligence 24
Perception 23
Memory 24
Willpower 24
Any skill not using perception is done at 2178 SP/h with the worst case scenario at 2112 SP/h. Add another 90/60 SP/h if all the advanced learning is pushed to level 5.
Source
This was ofcourse long before learning skills were removed and neural remaps were introduced. Also seems I only waited a year and not two before going from +4 to +5's on this character. After all the +5 implants back in 2006 cost around 2 years worth of game time each so well out of reach. Thankfully CCP tweaked the availability.
But sure, I'm not the highest SP Gallente Jin-Mei in game without a reason and the Achura I created (and later sold) is still in the top 5 among them.
Dominique Vasilkovsky EVEboard
Once known as:
Mashie Saldana sold - Anastasia Rigel sold - Monica Foulkes sold
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
BFG Tech
153
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Posted - 2015.01.27 13:55:23 -
[14] - Quote
Chaotix Morwen wrote:It isnt the same argument. Learning skills once trained stuck with you, you never had to think of them again, the only cost was time. There are no alternatives to them, and there is no downside to having them, this is no choice. Learnng implants cost you your implant slots 1-5, which can be used for other things, get a crystal set for 15% boost to your rep rate or get that extra 1.5 sp/m with the learning implants? This is choice.
After 7 years you care about 11m sp? This is sounding more and more like a case of you wanting the +5 sp at no cost, heres the thing, this game was built upon consequences. Upon risk vs reward. If you want the reward, take the risk, fly with your +5s and enjoy the game.
The options with learning skills were the same as the current options for learning implants. You had the option to ship spin for two months or train ship skills and actually have fun in game. Now that everyone picked the ship spinning route explains why we no longer have those skills in game. However with the learning implants it is the same choice again for people, do they want to have fun or progress faster in safety?
Personally I don't care what happens with the learning implants as long as they flatten the attributes. It would just be a good opportunity to get both fixed at once.
And yes I'm glad i didn't miss out on those 11m+ SP. 
Dominique Vasilkovsky EVEboard
Once known as:
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
BFG Tech
167
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Posted - 2015.02.09 12:44:16 -
[15] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:I think one of the reasons that the attribute system is getting a look is that all the choices you can make with attributes feel kind of bad. The time scale of the impact of a decision is so long that you never really know if you're making a mistake by committing to a remap, and the reward is so deferred and so abstract that the system always feels like it's punishing you.
I agree on this, it is no reason at all to have people locked in to min/max attributes. Let people train skills in the order they fancy without penalty. We already had the original attribute system before remaps and it was a royal pain for everyone not born Achura.
Remove the attributes and give everyone a flat SP/h speed and be done with it, it is long overdue. The training will still be full of consequences as nothing stops you from maxing out the wrong ship/weapon system. Just that you finally can mix shield and missile skills in your skill queue without feeling bad that you are doing half the training suboptimally.
Dominique Vasilkovsky EVEboard
Once known as:
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
BFG Tech
167
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Posted - 2015.02.09 17:15:47 -
[16] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:Don't think as training with a balanced attributes as a penalty but as a the standard and a focused remap is the bonus one gets for focusing on one area.
Except focused is the standard and has been since the remaps were introduced. Balanced is for those that don't mind falling behind.
Dominique Vasilkovsky EVEboard
Once known as:
Mashie Saldana sold - Anastasia Rigel sold - Monica Foulkes sold
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
BFG Tech
167
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Posted - 2015.02.09 22:30:01 -
[17] - Quote
Mathias Raholan wrote:I keep reading "New players won't understand... " a lot in this topic. While I'm all for doing stuff to retain people and make some things more simple, but for the love of god let them figure something out over time. I didn't know a lot my first days, neither did a majority of players. This is like some weird helicopter parenting.
The game will still remain nice and complex long after the learning attributes are gone. You still need to plan what skills to train, just that you finally can train them in a logical order without any penalty. You will still need to figure out what ship to fly and how to fit it. You will still need to figure out how to properly fly said fit.
Dominique Vasilkovsky EVEboard
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
BFG Tech
169
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Posted - 2015.02.13 09:55:40 -
[18] - Quote
Set the training speed to 2700SP/h for everyone, make implants unpluggable just like ship modules and we won't have any issues with jump clones either.
Dominique Vasilkovsky EVEboard
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
BFG Tech
172
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Posted - 2015.02.13 18:50:19 -
[19] - Quote
Celestia Via wrote:Even though I agree that the attribute system needs work and that, as is made obvious by my previous posts, the learning implants are indeed useless and even reason for some not to risk PVP, I disagree with removing attributes entirely.
Even if attributes are not a meaningful mechanic they do have one important role which noone seems to have brought up.
(unless I missed it somehow, in which case im sorry)
They represent character investment. Dont forget, EvE is not all about numbers and calculations, its an RPG. With characters.
Character attributes and the ability to alter them (remaps) are the main thing that makes your character feel abit different and unique from others. If we abolish them, all thats left to differentiate one toon from another is the mugshot.
EvE is an impersonal game as it is, since you cant actually see the character interact with anything else than the couch in officers quarters.
Taking away even the little things that make your Brutor different from a Civire would make the characters even more impersonal and harder to relate to, i.e. "be proud of". For that matter, we could just as well be spaceships rather than people.
In my opinion EvE characters need more human - relatable (is that even a word??) traits, taking away the few already there would be a mistake.
Fine leave the attributes in but decouple them from the learning speed.
Dominique Vasilkovsky EVEboard
Once known as:
Mashie Saldana sold - Anastasia Rigel sold - Monica Foulkes sold
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